INTERVIEW: 6.18.2018 - Master the Crypto with Matan Field


#1

In this interview for Master the Crypto, Matan talks about the evolution of blockchain technology, DAOstack’s value proposition, the advantages and disadvantages of reputation systems, and more
Transcriptions provided below.


#2

I. ON DAOSTACK & GOVERNANCE ON THE BLOCKCHAIN


Speaker Speech
Aziz: Okay, hi guys. Welcome to this edition on an interview with DAOstack. This is Master the Crypto’s first interview online, a video interview, and the project that we are about to assess or ask questions to is DAOstack. With me is the founder of DAOstack. Matan, right? We’re going to start by asking him a few questions, and he’ll take the floor, all right? Okay. Hi, Matan. My name is Aziz. Let me start by asking the question, right?
Matan: Hi Aziz.
Aziz: Hi. The central solution of … Okay before that, can you give us a few words or a few lines about what is a DAOstack all about?
Matan: Sure. I would say that the greatest potential of the blockchain is not … I mean we have seen blockchain 1.0, which is the ledger, which is allowing us to have a global transaction network, decentralized global transaction network. We’ve seen blockchain 2.0, which is the computer, the decentralized computer, the Ethereum, which allows decentralized smart contracts and decentralized applications. I would argue that the highest value or the potential of the blockchain is actually in what we call decentralized applications, and more so decentralized organizations. Decentralized applications are similar to applications that we are familiar with in the regular web. For example, Airbnb is an application, Uber is an application, and so on and so forth. Facebook is an application. Then this decentralized application is similar to those, but with a difference that it is controlled and owned and operated by a decentralized crowd and programs on the blockchain rather than a centralized company. The alignment of interests in those applications are better aligned with the crowd, and not with some invisible stakeholders.
Matan: Similarly, decentralized organizations are similar to organizations. It’s a large group of people who are working together to achieve some certain goals, but the difference is that it’s not like a hierarchical top bottom rigid organizations, and rather it’s a crowd organization which is fluid, agile, and most importantly can grow much faster and more effective than existing rigid organizations. These organizations is basically large number of people coordinated around shared goals with code in the blockchain. I would argue that this is the highest potential of blockchain. These are decentralized applications, and centralized organizations know that the most missing links, or missing pieces in order to facilitate dApps … Decentralized applications, we call them dApps, centralized organizations we call them DAOs, so the missing link or missing pieces to facilitate a large number of dApps and DAOs is the yet-missing collective decision making engine. If you have a decentralized organization, you need to have somehow coordinate the inputs of many, many people effectively into creating outputs, decisions. The same for decentralized organization and same for decentralized application. You need to coordinate large number of inputs of people into decisions, into outputs, with the code on the blockchain.
Matan: This thing, transforming input of agents into outputs, we call that decentralized decision making, or decentralized governance. That’s the missing element right now for enabling dApps and DAOs. DAOstack is a full suite of tools for decentralizing governance that can facilitate and engine any decentralized application or decentralized organization easily, which means that you can easily integrate with any kind of governance system, akin WordPress for websites. We say that DAOstack is for DAOs, as WordPress for website.
Aziz: Okay, thank you for that. I think that was a very clear overview of what DAOstack is. Essentially in a nutshell, a one-liner would be what you say. DAOstack, it’s similar to, what you call, WordPress is for the websites. I think that’s a great parallel, right? Those central solution of DAOstack is what you called blockchain governance, right? Can you explain what exactly is governance in blockchain context and why it is very, very important for the concept of governance in a decentralized system.
Matan: Governance is simply the accumulation of inputs from members, from agents, and transforming that into outputs, into decisions. For example, let’s say … What is the role of governance of course depends on the use case. Let’s pick a use case. Let’s say that we are speaking about an investment fund. Rather than having an investment fund that is managed by five or one or twenty people, let’s say that it’s a management fund that is operated by the crowd, by 20000 people. 20000 people put up a fund together and they co-manage that fund. For example, they need to make decisions in what project to invest their shared fund. Now, the inputs are members who are saying, “I want to invest in that project, I don’t want to invest in this project. I think this project is good, I think this project is bad.”
Matan: These are kind of the inputs that goes into the system. Then the output is eventually a decision, a collective decision, a crowd decision, that either invest in a project, or doesn’t invest in a project, or how much to invest in project and so on and so forth. This is an example for crown decision making functionality, and that’s basically what we call by decentralized governance. The ability of transforming inputs of many, many agents into a decision in certain context. In any context. That’s why it’s important. Basically any sort of decentralized application or any sort of decentralized collaboration or organization of any sort will require to have that engine. Without that engine you cannot coordinate large number of people into a single coherent faction.

#3

II. ON DAOSTACK’S VALUE PROPOSITION


Speaker Speech
Aziz: Okay, thank you for that. I think that was a very clear overview of what DAOstack is. Essentially in a nutshell, a one-liner would be what you say. DAOstack, it’s similar to, what you call, WordPress is for the websites. I think that’s a great parallel, right? Those central solution of DAOstack is what you called blockchain governance, right? Can you explain what exactly is governance in blockchain context and why it is very, very important for the concept of governance in a decentralized system.
Matan: Governance is simply the accumulation of inputs from members, from agents, and transforming that into outputs, into decisions. For example, let’s say … What is the role of governance of course depends on the use case. Let’s pick a use case. Let’s say that we are speaking about an investment fund. Rather than having an investment fund that is managed by five or one or twenty people, let’s say that it’s a management fund that is operated by the crowd, by 20000 people. 20000 people put up a fund together and they co-manage that fund. For example, they need to make decisions in what project to invest their shared fund. Now, the inputs are members who are saying, “I want to invest in that project, I don’t want to invest in this project. I think this project is good, I think this project is bad.”
Matan: These are kind of the inputs that goes into the system. Then the output is eventually a decision, a collective decision, a crowd decision, that either invest in a project, or doesn’t invest in a project, or how much to invest in project and so on and so forth. This is an example for crown decision making functionality, and that’s basically what we call by decentralized governance. The ability of transforming inputs of many, many agents into a decision in certain context. In any context. That’s why it’s important. Basically any sort of decentralized application or any sort of decentralized collaboration or organization of any sort will require to have that engine. Without that engine you cannot coordinate large number of people into a single coherent faction.
Aziz: Okay, thanks for that Matan. All right. We know that the blockchain is the concept of huge interest from many people and many entities and organizations. They are keen into exploring it further. This includes many businesses that are keen to, for example, enhance operational efficiency through automation of some sorts, right? Even those interested can build their own applications or companies. How does the value proposition of DAOstack help in those regards?
Matan: Again, it depends on the use cases. Generally there are two kinds of, I would say, value propositions that DAOstack has. The first kind is if you’re a business, is to build a certain decentralized application. For example, again, it can be an application for crowd investments. It can be an application for decentralized insurance, for example. It can be an application for curation of restaurants. Every such … If your business is to build any sort of decentralized application that requires collective decision making, then you can integrate with the stack, and basically get the governance element, the decision making element, out of the books. You don’t need to build it yourself, you can just plug in directly. You don’t even need to know how the blockchain works, because you can plug in directly from JavaScript, or maybe a friendly JavaScript layer that allows front-end developers to integrate with the stack without the need to know anything on blockchain. That’s one kind of value proposition.
Matan: The other kind of value proposition is that if you want your business itself to organize as a DAO, so if you want your business to be operated by a crowd. Maybe not totally, maybe you want to engage a crowd. Let’s say you have a company, but you want to engage it, a crowd of few thousand people to participate in your business. Maybe in ideation, maybe in execution, maybe in decision making. Whatever that function would be, you can use DAOstack, and you can even use the first interface that we have, Alchemy, which is an interface for decentralized crowd budgeting of projects. You can use those tools directly to interact with the decentralized crowd, to be engaged in your project.

#4

III. ON BLOCKCHAIN ADOPTION


Speaker Speech
Aziz: All right. Thanks for that. The game changer for a highly successful blockchain project is its success in attracting the mainstream masses, right? In terms of attracting real world businesses and developers. Do you think that the market is ready for decentralized organization solution, given the extreme infancy of the blockchain market, as well as the uncharted territories of the DAOs.
Matan: Yeah. There’s a chicken and egg here. On one hand, massive adoption would come from bringing the blockchain to mainstream. On the other hand, bringing the blockchain to mainstream will come from us adoption. There’s a chicken and egg here. I think everyone are waiting for what we call the killer app of Ethereum, or the killer app of the blockchain. Like, what would be those apps on the blockchain that provide … It should be two things. Firstly it should provide value beyond any application which doesn’t use the blockchain. A new kind of value that doesn’t exist there. Secondly, it should fit. It should provide that value with the existing level of technology that we have right now. As I say, the blockchain technology is in infancy, which means that it still moves slower. It still can facilitate only that and that. Number of transaction a second, and so on and so forth. There is still limitation to the technology. You need to be able to provide value for mass adoption of some application under those limitations. Of course those limitations will become better and better, but it will take time.
Matan: I actually think that the DAO is the killer app. The DAO is that killer app that can provide significant value with the current limitation. For example, let’s pick a concrete use case that I think is really needed out there, and that can support it. Actually let me give you two use cases. First use case is a decentralized decision making about budgeting. That’s exactly what Alchemy does. Today for example, you have hundreds of blockchain projects, that’s raised tens and hundreds, even thousands of million dollars. Enormous money. They also have thousands of open source developers, and hundreds of thousands of open source developers interested to be part of those project. They contribute code, and other stuff, not just code. The problem, the actually limiting factor for further innovation and growth for those projects is their ability, or their limitation, in using that infinite capital, and they’re blowing it into human resources, into developers, to further grow, and grow, and grow your innovation.
Matan: The actually limiting factor is decision making. Let’s put it that way, one person cannot effectively spend one billion dollar fast. That’s the limiting factor. Actually the limiting factor is the decision making. Not lack of capital, not lack of developers. The bottleneck is decision making of capital, into deployment, deployed into developers. That’s exactly what DAOs are solving, and that’s exactly what Alchemy is solving. The ability of crowd participation around decision that allows you to make very large number of decisions in a very short time effectively. That’s for example, a killer use case that are now piloting. We actually just launched the pilot of it.
Matan: Completely different use case. Let me touch, for example, ICO rating. ICO rating is a huge business. There are hundreds of platforms that are doing ICO rating. It’s a very big business in the blockchain space. However, almost all of them are completely broken, because the interest is broken. Almost all of them projects are buying their rating, so the incentive to do the right rating is broken from the beginning. The business model of those platforms corrupting the platforms. Then there is very hard to actually know what’s a good project and what’s not a good project. Now imagine you have a decentralized ICO rating. You have a platform where anyone can participate and rate a project, and you have a decentralized ICO rating that has a much better alignment of interests, and this produces much better results, and then thus produces much better reviews, and that’s produced much better business.
Matan: That’s another use case. Again, also there you need to have this collective decision making process where a lot of inputs from people about whether a project is good or bad, or how well a project is transforming to one decision about rating an ICO. That’s I think another use case which is I think is a killer app, will actually have mass adoption once fully deployed. Actually we are also working with another theme, we are also working on that project.

#5

IV. ON REPUTATION MECHANISMS


Speaker Speech
Aziz: Thanks for that Matan. I agree with you that the central component of making sure that a decentralized community or environment works well is with proper governance, and that’s what you’re trying to do, right? To allow for that, to facilitate that, you have to have very very strong mechanisms. One of them is, in DAOstack’s case, is the reputation mechanism, right? Can you explain more about that?
Matan: Right. You have to have several things in place to make it right. The governance question is a hard question. It took us quite a long time to get it right. It has several elements. Reputation is one of them. It’s not the only one, but let me tell you a bit about reputation, what is advantages, and what is disadvantage, and how we bypass the disadvantage, or to solve them. Reputation is simply a name that we use for voting power. We can have a score, just as you can have … It’s not tokens. Tokens are something that you can transfer to your friend. Reputation is something that you cannot transfer. If you have 10 points of reputation, you cannot transfer that to someone else. Then if someone else has 15 or 5, then they have a different voting power. If you have 10 points of reputation, you have twice the voting power, twice the impact of your voice, with respect to someone that has five points of reputation. When I keep saying that there is a governance system that takes inputs from agents and then transform them into outputs and to decisions, then this governance takes into account the inputs from many agents. The way that it decides which input is more or less important is by its reputation. By the reputation of that member. This is what reputation is. The advantage of …
Matan: Maybe let me tell you very shortly what’s the alternative to reputation. Alternative to reputation is token-based voting, or tokens-based input weighing. For example, we will counter … The governance will consider your voice with respect to the number of tokens in the economy that you’re holding. Plutocracy if you want. So this is an alternative. The advantages … The problem with plutocracy is that it’s very highly corruptible. It’s very highly manipulable. That’s something that just corrupts the governance system. Any sort of token based voting system. With respect with that, the advantage of reputation is that it’s pretty resilient. It’s pretty protected, protectible from manipulations. That’s the advantage of reputation.
Matan: The disadvantage of reputation is that … Maybe, disadvantage with respect to what? With respect to to market governance? They are kind of like market governances, where traders are governing the system. Again, it’s very manipulated, but it also can produce maybe more decisions. The downside of reputation system is that they are maybe more slow. If you want to be resilient, if you want to be protectible from manipulations, you naively can generate a small number of decisions in a given time. To bypass that, we invented a new kind of consensus protocol. A new kind of decision making protocols that we call holographic consensus, in which reputation systems can produce very large number of decisions at a given time, effectively and protected with manipulations. The way that it does so is by entangling, or adding to that reputation system, an additional system which is token based, which is market based. It’s a prediction game, or oracle network.
Matan: That network basically supports the reputation system by predicting the good decisions to make, and filtering from large number of decisions, filtering those who are most … I will say most promising. By that, providing signaling. In a way, this extra market network is a navigator for the collective attention of the reputation system. At the end of the day the decisions are made only by the reputation system. To get there, the reputation system and the oracle predictive network together produce both scalability of number of decisions at any given time, and resilience, and protectability from manipulation. It’s a bit technical, it’s a bit more technical.

#6

V. ON DEVELOPING ON TOP OF THE STACK


Speaker Speech
Aziz: Yeah, it is, it is. Thanks for clarifying for that, right? Okay. I need to move on to the ease of use for developers, because this is very important too. Because developers are the sources of development, of innovation, which is invariably essential to a platform like DAOstack. How easy it is for any kind of developers, not blockchain engineers or those, just normal coders who are just well versed in traditional computing language. How easy it is? Can you talk us through the process of development? Of app development, or DAO development on DAOstack. Do you have, do they need prior blockchain experience of some sort?
Matan: That’s what we are constantly moving towards making the DAOstack accessible for anyone, any developer, without any skills or acquaintance with the blockchain. We have the first layer, which is ARC, which is the governance framework that we developed. There on top of that we’ve developed ARC JS, which is a JavaScript bridge. It’s a bridge to JavaScript. If you’re developing a front end application, a regular web application, and you’re using JavaScript, which is the normal standard language to develop web applications, then you can directly interact with the blockchain, and directly interact with the ARC framework, the governance framework, without needing to know or understand the blockchain, how it works. We are actually now even doing another code architecture shift, in which we are picking … You won’t even need to understand the context of ARC. Because ARC has a context, it has several different elements into it. For example if you want to build a DAO, you need to have … By definition when you open a DAO … You can open a DAO with a single transaction. A single command in JavaScript. Then when you open that DAO, you have different elements playing a game. You have the reputation system, you have the token system, you have something we call the avatar, you have the governance module. You kind of need to understand the context.
Matan: Now what we are doing is that we are abstracting that. We are picking some elements which are like the core … The thing that is mostly needed in many projects, and we are enabling the developer to integrate directly with that, with a voting system. For example let’s say a developer already developed his decentralized application, and he’s just lacking that element for making a voting of agents transverting the decision. Again, using this holographic consensus engine, which I argue is the only way to scale up decision making in a resilient manner. Then we are encapsulating that voting system, again, into JavaScript, in a way that allows it to interact with it. Only without even sending the larger context. Bottom line, it should be very very easy. Also documentation is getting better and better over time. The main guiding rule for us is to make it accessible for front-end developers that do not have experience with the blockchain. This is really where the massive adoption is nigh.

#7

VI. ON THE BLOCKCHAIN-AGNOSTIC NATURE OF DAOSTACK


Speaker Speech
Aziz: Okay, thanks Matan. The next question talks about the blockchain agnostic nature of projects. DAOstack will be built on the Ethereum blockchain, right? Does DAOstack plan to be blockchain agnostic? Meaning they can be created on other blockchains. If yes or no, what other advantages and disadvantages that you see of being operable across a variety of blockchains?
Matan: Firstly, DAOstack is already built on the Ethereum blockchain. It’s already live on the main net. That’s one. Secondly, yes, it will be blockchain agnostic, or potentially, or philosophically it should be blockchain agnostic, once there are other relevant blockchains operating, we definitely have the interest to develop DAOstack on them as well, and make interoperability between blockchains. However right now I’m not aware of any single blockchain that facilitates smart contracts and is scalable and operational and resilient. Right now Ethereum is the only one. Philosophically yes, we want to be blockchain agnostic. The upsides … Generally I think interoperability between different technologies is good. The upside is of course is that you can let, in a way the users democratically decides for their technology that they’re using, you can make …
Matan: I think the ecosystem will be more resilient if you have interoperability between different blockchains. Generally I think the ecosystem would be more resilient. You will also have a larger network effect. If you have some crowds that are focused on blockchain A, and then you have some other crowds who are focused on blockchain B, but then once you make interoperability, you are enlarging the network effect of the crowd that is supporting whatever you do. Generally there are mostly upsides for interoperability. The downside of course is only if you are making bad interoperability. For example if you are connecting a lot of blockchains in a way that the total capacity of the blockchains is limited by the bottlenecks, so limited by the slowest ones, then it’s a downside. If the safety of the system is limited by the least safe blockchain, it’s a downside, and so on and so forth. If you’re making interoperability such that you are always impacted by the least something blockchain … Least safe, least fast, least something blockchain, then it’s a downside for interoperability.

#8

VII. ON ALCHEMY AND PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT


Speaker Speech
Aziz: Thanks for that. Let’s talk about traction for a moment, all right? The first ideation as you just mentioned just now was Alchemy, built on DAOstack. A user interface for budgeting and resource allocation. Correct me if I’m wrong, but there’s already an MVP, a minimum viable product for that, right? Can you tell us more about that, and the timeline of what we can expect from that? What doors you would open?
Matan: Yeah. Alchemy’s already live. I would call it an alpha. It’s live on the main net. We’ve just launched an internal pilot. Well, semi-internal pilot, this week. You can already process within the decentralized decision making, which means that you can already let a crowd to make proposals to use funds, and then vote on those proposals, if those people have reputation. Then also as I mentioned before, with the holographic consensus and the predicting oracle network, you can also let people make predictions about the fate of proposals. These things already exist, and the pilot is launched, and we’ll start seeing it more in action. Within the next few months, we are going to do several iterations, several pilots on that.
Matan: In terms of timelines, I would say that in the next three months we will have between two to three pilots running, with growing engagement. Right now the pilot for example, we have about 40 reputation holders playing the game. In the next pilot we’ll have many more. Maybe hundreds, maybe thousands of reputation holders participating. In the next three months, we are making several pilots, improving the application, adding features. Then at Q4, so around, I hope that around … Yeah, Q4, so October this year, or maybe around towards the end of the year, we would like to actually launch the genesis fund. Basically the idea is that most of the proceedings that we have raised in our token sale will be eventually managed by a DAO, the Genesis DAO, on top of our own platform. We would like to launch the Genesis DAO.
Matan: Right now, it’s basically the Genesis DAO pilots. We’d like to launch the real Genesis DAO towards the end of this year. Then we have a roadmap, also on our website, for many more advances of the technology, including integrations to other tools such as Slack, and Trello, and all that for management, decentralized management. Including one major technology shift will be off chain. We want to develop much of the blockchain logic, we want to migrate it to off chain. That will make the application much more scalable in terms of blockchain transaction limits. That’s something that we are also aiming for next year. Yeah, we would like to … We’re going to add identity right now. Right now it’s kind of like anonymous, and we want to add identity profiles and all that, and your ability to tie your blockchain identity with your social identity. Twitter for example, and so on and so forth. There are a lot of things to add in. Right now it’s a very … It’s working, but it’s a very narrow and lean application.

#9

VIII. ON ON-CHAIN, OFF-CHAIN, ACCOUNTABILITY, AND PRIVACY


Speaker Speech
Aziz: I think it’s commendable that you guys are doing the genesis DAO, that’s what you said. You guys have really … You know, putting it into action through the ICO of funds that you guys have raised, and doing a genesis fund on top of DAOstack, which is really practicing doing what you guys are preaching. I think that’s commendable. When you talk about scalability, and your view towards off chain progression development. This is contentious in a sense that … It is polarizing, right? The scalability issue. What would you say to those who feel like philosophically blockchain should … All transactions should be on the actual blockchain, because that is transparent. You know we can actually see and verify that on the blockchain, but when it goes off chain, there’s a veil of privacy. What do you say to purist who rather prefer the on-chain scaling method, rather than off chain?
Matan: Well, I would say that it’s simply not realistic. The application cannot be all on the chain. The blockchain’s not meant for that, it will never be as scalable as you want to facilitate everything that you have in the … Like every computation, single computation that you have in the world. It’s simply not meant for that, and it’s not possible, it’s not realistic. At the end of the day, we’ll have to have most of our logic computed off chain. That’s also okay. It’s not reducing. Let me put it that way, it’s not reducing the security or the thing that matter. Yes, you need transparency, but you don’t need the transparency about each and every bit. You don’t need transparency about each and every thing in the system. You need transparency about what matters. You need to do consensus about what matters. Off chain architectures allow you to migrate everything that doesn’t matter off the chain, while remaining on the chain everything that matters.
Matan: Also making that in a secure fashion, so that you maintain your security and consensus and transparency in everything else. Basically, you are using game theory incentives off the chain to allow smaller number of people to agree about the reality that otherwise the whole blockchain network would agree about. You allow smaller community off the chain to agree about that reality, but in a way which is very viable, and come out confirming the consensus, although it’s not on the chain. In a way, you are getting the same effect as the on chain but much much more effective.

#10

IX. ON GEN & HOLOGRAPHIC CONSENSUS


Speaker Speech
Aziz: Thanks for clarifying that. Last question. We move, we dive into the token utility, right? How does the native DAOstack token, ie. the GEN function within the platform, and is it needed?
Matan: Sure. The GEN is the native token for attention. Basically collecting, purchasing, buying … For paying attention, or buying attention. Buying collective attention. Basically, as I mentioned, governance systems have a problem. They need to satisfy two criteria at the same time which are very conflicting. On the one hand they need to be resilient, so they need to be protectible from manipulation. If I can abuse the system, I can manipulate the system to make the crowd decide what I want, then that governance system is not good. Then sometimes also need to be scalable, which means that you need to be able to facilitate large number of decisions, quickly. Now, it’s kind of like intention with each other, because if you want resilience, you kind of want everyone to vote about everything. That’s of course not scalable. If you want scalability, you want little number of people making the quick decisions. Each decision is made by small groups on behalf of everyone, but then it’s not resilient. That’s why we invented holographic consensus. It actually allows for a small group of people to take decisions on behalf of everyone, but just …
Matan: By the way, this is very analogous to off chain computations, but in a way that guarantees or ensures those decisions are actually in line with the majority, with the consensus. The way that it works is there is an additional oracle network of predictors that constantly make predictions about the fate of proposals, and they make that for profit. They make it for business. Now, this entire oracle network, the predictions about the fate of proposals, is done with a GEN token. If I’m a predictor in the oracle network, and I want to predict that certain proposal is going to pass, then I need to stake some tokens on it, and that’s the GEN token. I need to stake some. Let’s say I am putting 100 GEN token and I’m saying, “I am willing to predict that this proposal is going to pass in this DAO,” and then if I make a good prediction I’m going to gain more GEN tokens, and if I’m going to make bad prediction, I’m going to lose my tokens.
Matan: This is the utility, basically, of the GEN token. It’s actually critical to the facilitation of large scale and resilient governance systems, and across the entire DAO ecosystem, DAO and DAC ecosystem, that is riding with DAO as the platform or framework, the entire prediction network, the entire oracle network will be running, if you want, on GENs. Just as Ethereum is running on Ether, the oracle prediction network is running on GEN, and that’s critical for the scalability and success and resiliency of the DAOs and DACs that will be using DAOstack.
Aziz: All right. Thanks for that clarification. I think we’ve come to the end of the interview. Thank you very much for your insightful thoughts and clarifications on DAOstack. I’m sure that our readers and those who view this interview would have definitely have a very insightful view of DAOstack and the project. We’re very excited about this, this innovation in this space, and we will definitely be looking forward to more updates. Hopefully, you know, could behind your success as a blockchain product. I’d like to thank Matan once again. Thank you very much for your time and your clarification, and I hope everything goes well for you.
Matan: Thank you Aziz. Good luck.
Aziz: Pleasure. Thank you.